Tasers v.s. Firearms – Carls Jr. Incident

This happened yesterday at a Carls Jr. In Monterey Park California:

The video shows Rodriguez raising a pipe toward a police officer. Two officers open fire – first five rounds, and then the second officer fires five more.

Source – ABC

The police are villainized whenever they shoot someone, by one group or another and i’m really getting sick of the lethal force vs less than lethal force complaining.  “Did they have to kill the guy?”.  Well… they tried to use a Taser and that didn’t work, he came after them with the pipe so they shot him DEAD.  End of discussion if you ask me. Frankly, the whole Taser thing is just a gift to criminals anyway.  Nowadays you can do stuff you would have been shot for back in the day, but instead get zapped and the worst of it is you might shit your pants and go to jail.

Thoughts?

Hat tip: Eric, Les, Kyle

56 COMMENTS

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JohnnyComeLately January 25, 2012 at 12:23 am

Carl’s Jr.: Fuck you, I’m eating.

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DB327 January 25, 2012 at 07:50 am

+1 Classic!

“Your kids are starving. Carl’s Jr. believes no child should go hungry. You are an unfit mother. Your children will be placed in the custody of Carl’s Jr.”

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M@ January 25, 2012 at 12:27 am

It’s always the same old shit from people who have no clue what the real world is like…
– Why’d you shoot him? You could’ve tased him!
– Why’d you tase him? You could’ve pepper sprayed him!
– Why’d you pepper spray him? You could’ve gone hands on!
– Why’d you go hands on? You could’ve just talked to him!
– Why’d you talk to him? You didn’t even need to be there!

Then it’s always…

Why weren’t you there?!? You could’ve done something!

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matt RRC January 25, 2012 at 02:45 pm

Perfect.

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Ernest Young January 25, 2012 at 08:33 pm

I have seen police officers use their tasers in situations that do not warrent them. They are a little dependant. In this situation I do not see much wrong. But I have personally seen cops tase people when a good yelling or a simple hands on approach would have worked.

I even once watched a school resource officer use a taser to break up a fight. Probably not what she should have done.

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Paul January 27, 2012 at 12:46 pm

Most departments would rather have a taser be used than having an officer go hands on. When an officer goes hands on both the officer and subject can get hurt and/or the subject can go for the gun as they are both making body to body contact.

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hydepark308 January 27, 2012 at 05:34 pm

I wish cops would quit referring to people as “subject.” I’m not the king’s property. I am a citizen not a feudal slave.

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Paul January 27, 2012 at 08:42 pm

Go back to school, used as a noun it means a person or thing that is being discussed, described, or dealt with. Moron.

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paulsafag January 30, 2012 at 01:22 pm

wow way to be a fucking loser paul.

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Paul February 6, 2012 at 08:10 am

You mad bro? lol.

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Jusuchin (Military Otaku) January 25, 2012 at 12:37 am

Youtube comments make me want to puke.

That said, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Guy was clearly on something and I guess the rain fucked with the Taser?

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Paul January 27, 2012 at 12:45 pm

The rain most likely didnt have anything to do with the taser not being effective. Since he was hit in the face, there is a good chance both barbs didnt hit him. Without both of them in the skin it is ineffective. Also, the closer the barbs are the less ineffective the taser is. In this case he may have just had a small shocking sensation in his face since they would have been so close together. Had he been tased in a different location and standing farther away from the taser the barbs would have had more of a seperation and would likely have gotten the full body taze. Since he was likely high on some kind of drug, it’s likely a good shot from a taser would have been effective. No different then insurgent fighters overseas shooting up before going out and taking several lethal hits from NATO forces but still running away seemingly unharmed.

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gf8wagoneer January 25, 2012 at 12:37 am

If it doesn’t get all over the place, it doesn’t belong in your face.

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Adam January 25, 2012 at 12:38 am

Listening to the commentary in this video just makes me sick….the guys recording this have no clue what they’re talking about. Possibly my favorite line out of the entire video was “They could’ve just shot him in the leg”.

That, right there, shows that the guys recording this have no idea why shooting once doesn’t always cut it. If the guy woulda hit a cop with that pipe, then they would’ve been saying “Why didn’t the cops shoot him?”…

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Vhyrus January 25, 2012 at 12:39 am

I’m usually pretty critical against the police but I have absolutely nothing bad to say about their conduct in this particular case. A crowbar can very easily kill someone in one shot, it is not something to be taken lightly. They gave him plenty of warning and even waited till he made a threatening move toward the cop. They COULD have let the dog on him but that would have put the dog in harms way so I’m not saying that was a better idea either. They really had very little choice in the matter.

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Adam January 25, 2012 at 12:42 am

If they would’ve given him any more time to think about stopping, the guy probably would’ve gotten in his car and tried to drive off.

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ozwald January 25, 2012 at 09:38 am

+1 buddy. but that clearly wasn’t a crowbar. that wasn’t crowbar, that was a Stanley Fubar. no rational sane citizen needs to be able to pry or torque or beat anything with such excessive force. ban crowbars.

also, the dudes that shot the film are totally beavis and butthead.

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Matt January 25, 2012 at 05:13 pm

Good call on noticing that it was a Fubar. Those are about 30″ long and the other side of the hammer face can do some serious damage if swung full force. 1 hit absolutely has the potential to kill/maim.

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Vhyrus January 25, 2012 at 12:45 am

I wish the cop had kneecapped the faggots laughing in the background. Are we that fucked as a society that we can watch someone die in front of us and LAUGH at it?

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John January 25, 2012 at 09:51 pm

My observation as well. Sickening.

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Kyle January 26, 2012 at 07:09 pm

Common response when in psychological shock.

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Dave January 25, 2012 at 01:27 am

At first the laughing bothered me, but I think it was nervous laughter of “I can’t believe that just happened.” Maybe every tv show they’ve ever seen came back, and they thought, “Wow it was just like tv.” But you’ll notice that as they realize the guy is dead, the gravity of the situation sinks in, and the laughing dies off quite a bit.

I really think it was just nervous laughter, out of shock.

About the Taser not working, it works best if the probes spread out over a large area on the body. That’s what causes the major muscle contractions and falling down-ness. Did you notice how close the taser was to the suspect? It appeared to be about two arm’s lengths away. The probes probably weren’t more than a couple inches apart, which would only cause the recipient to feel pain. At that distance, bad guy could have landed a blow in one swing, probably without having to take more than a step toward the officer. I’m not sure if the second group of shots was necessary, but of course I couldn’t see through that car from this video’s standpoint. Plus I’m not the one who almost got his face taken off by a crazed man with a crow bar.

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Kevin January 25, 2012 at 09:14 am

The first 5 rounds were justified. The second police popping him 5 times was criminal. The second police should be brought to trial and convicted. Lethal threat was over, he was still recoiling and retreating from the first barrage of fire.

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Vhyrus January 25, 2012 at 09:53 am

It’s not that cut and dry. SOP for any lethal threat is ‘shoot until it’s down’. If he wasn’t on the ground when the first 5 rounds went flying (which he wasn’t) then he is still a possible threat. They probably did not need the second salvo but calling it criminal is a bit excessive.

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matt RRC January 25, 2012 at 02:47 pm

Let me come at your head with a crowbar and then we can see if your opinion changes. I bet it would.

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Dayid Alan January 25, 2012 at 10:04 am

i don’t know what the debate is about: Break the law, don’t obey the police, threaten the life of any person (a police officer even), and you lose your rights. This idiot just happened to lose his right to breath through his own stupid actions. One less long court battle and one less idiot who’ll be back on the street in a few months doing the same stupid shit.

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Willie January 25, 2012 at 11:20 am

Would have been a better vid if they beat him with batons. But with tasers, do the police even carry those anymore?

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Mark January 25, 2012 at 12:24 pm

I agree on the 2nd salvo of gunfire. Shoot until suspect is down, for your own safety.

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Gloss January 25, 2012 at 01:09 pm

Justified. People need to remember to put themselves in the duty boots. If you perceive that there is a threat to one’s life you shoot center mass, and shoot until it stops.

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wowcopdicksucker January 30, 2012 at 01:24 pm

Everyone needs 10 bullets who thinks like you

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overkill556x45 January 25, 2012 at 01:22 pm

My thought was always that the TASER was for lower-intensity conflicts. I used it to break up bar fights a few times without ever actually deploying it. They tried the TASER first, and they used a “lethal cover” officer to cover the TASER shooter, just like the training teaches. The guy was doped up and didn’t respond, he tried to swing a deadly weapon at an officer, and got what he had coming. They did the right thing here. Don’t be a turd and the cops won’t shoot you (usually).

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Jwhite January 25, 2012 at 01:57 pm

With you on that one.

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Adam January 25, 2012 at 02:51 pm

Well said

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Kevin January 25, 2012 at 03:18 pm

Just saying, he was retreating, had his back to the officers, not much of a threat then. Could he have become a threat again? Certainly. If he had turned back around towards the officers, I wouldn’t have a problem with the second salvo of five. It would be hard for me to say “justified” for those 5 shots in the back. How would two CCW citizens come out in court over this? The first guy would get off, the second would be cuffed, stuffed, and in jail. Police are supposed to be more judicial on the use of lethal force.

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John January 25, 2012 at 09:55 pm

That guy appeared to lunge back at the second cop and that’s what prompted the first shoot. You’ll see the second cop drop back from the lunge, draw and then shoot.

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Linoge January 25, 2012 at 03:40 pm

Opportunity – he was well within striking range for a melee weapon.

Intent – apparently the police were there for a reason, and, if nothing else, his posture and behavior indicated he was about to strike one of the officers.

Capability – would not have been the first time someone has been killed by blunt force trauma.

Deadly force triangle requirements met.

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Church January 25, 2012 at 03:40 pm

The cops did what they had to, slightly excesive… But did nothing wrong. And it’s so fucking sad that people just watched someone die and fucking laugh about it…

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Nakedgun17 January 25, 2012 at 07:09 pm

It is a justifiable shoot. I will say that the second Officer firing seems to be “sympathetic fire”… But I will not judge his frame of mind.

As for the commentary; it’s typical from un-informed people who have never been in a situation where their life was threatened. “They could have used their batons”… Officers don’t get paid to get into sword-fights. They tried less-lethal options, until the suspect made it lethal.

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Shocktroop0351 January 25, 2012 at 07:15 pm

I was taught a few years back that a man at 21 feet or less with a knife (or crowbar) is just as deadly as a guy with a gun if you have to come from the holster. Granted these officers were already out of the holster, but the bad guy was also a lot closer than 21 feet. I’d say if they felt their lives were threatened than deadly force was justified.

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Ernest Young January 25, 2012 at 08:37 pm

What i have an issue with is the laughing and “They smoked that motherfucker” comments were WAY over the line.

WTF is wrong with this kids?
Do they ENJOY watching people get shot up?

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bryce January 26, 2012 at 12:20 am

unfazed he pulled the taser wires out of his face then turned to swing at the LEO
I would have shot him too.

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Kevin January 26, 2012 at 07:53 am

If you are being told to get on the ground by police, refuse, they TAZE you, and you still will not obey them, and then actively make aggressive gestures with a FUBAR towards two officers with firearms aimed at you, you get 100% of what is coming.

The fact that the second officer fired a little under a second later is of no matter, the suspect was still standing. The SOP makes it clear that if you make the judgement call that lethal force is nesscisary, then you shoot until the target is down. There are no fancy hollywood shooting tricks where you shoot the crowbar out of his hand, or kneecap him. You shoot him dead to protect your life and those around you. The fact that buddy already resisted non lethal force makes it even clearer to me.

Shooting is 100% justified and I hope the cops don’t catch much legal flack from it.

Good on them for acting professionally.

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Maigo January 26, 2012 at 08:33 am

That is EXACTLY how to get shot by police. Good tutorial.

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Crew Chief January 26, 2012 at 09:05 am

If that car was not in the way, or if there was another idiot with a camera at a different angle. Then maybe this would be worth arguing over. I’m no expert on tactics, but I’ve always tried to stay out of someone’s reach in a potentially hostile situation. As the “Bad guy” starts to turn, look at how close their feet are to each other. And he was closing in! So, that pry bar plus the length of his arms equals “shoot to stop the action for me!”

I agree that “maybe” the second officer didn’t need to shoot…Maybe. But we can’t see through the car, MAYBE he had a gun or MAYBE he had a banana! None of us know, we can only speculate.

And as far as the people who say that the cops shoulda done this or coulda done that. Must be nice to judge from the comfort of your couch or armchair. Meanwhile, in the real world. I’m thinking, I’m glad those officers are ok!

Disgruntled F15/16 Crew Chief

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Jag January 26, 2012 at 10:41 am

These cops are murderers. I hope they are sent to jail and rot. This young men was over killed. Why didn’t they have the dog go after this young man? Is the dog just for looks? Any person can pull the triigger.

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massemj January 26, 2012 at 11:27 am

Over killed? Is that like killed and then killed again. The guy winds up on the cop and gets what he wanted, suicide by cop. Why should he send his dog, another police officer, into a dangerous situation unarmed? That’s like asking a bystander to disarm the guy with the pipe. A threat is a threat whether he was over killed or not.

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burnse January 26, 2012 at 01:50 pm

I’m not a cop, so I don’t know exactly what role the dog plays – I’d think that the k-9 would be released if the armed suspect were to attempt fleeing the area and the cops needed to take him in, but that armed suspect did not retreat. He wanted to stay and fight. He knew he’d already broken the law, and was clearly resisting an attempt to arrest (as evidenced by his clear physical response to being tased). He also did not have a pipe – he had a damned fubar. A fubar is not a piece of plumbing hardware – it is a demolition hand tool. Made for demolishing . I would not want 4 pounds of metal swung at my face.
If, for some reason, the dog had been released on the armed suspect, he would have very likely broken that dog’s spine, or fractured the skull (in a manner that would have likely ended the dog). Also, as mentioned by Massemj, the dog is also an officer, and any natural reaction from that armed suspect would have resulted in said suspect most likely being shot in the end.
I’m not always a fan of the police, but I don’t break the law. If I were dumb enough to break the law and come at an armed public servant (who’s job it is to keep dumb criminals from harming any member of the public, including other public servants) with a 4 pound bar of metal built for striking objects, I think that I’d see being shot as quite possibly being inevitable.
Hats off to the cops on this one. It doesn’t matter how many shots were taken. They shot the man with the intent of killing him, and they did their job. Additional thumbs up for one man looking out for his partner.

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Dave January 26, 2012 at 02:49 pm

Idiot. I hope its you facing me when I flip out with a crowbar. I don’t want to get “overkilled”, or whatever the hell that means.

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common sense January 28, 2012 at 11:02 am

America has turned into a fluffy, politically correct mess due to people like you. When a guy comes at me with something capable of ending my life I am not going to throw hugs and rainbows at him. I will simply defend myself until the threat stops. Let me know how your feelings and misguided blame keep you alive when this situation happens to you.

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Gust January 26, 2012 at 03:48 pm

Ah.. i guess a prepared police oficer would let the dog on the patrol car. Pretty stupid action holdin the dog in one hand and firing the gun with the other… and well a Taser is really a good weapon, created especially to this kind of action.. MY two cents is: the 5 rounds was bullshit, the cop freak out. NOTHING in this life need 5 shots to get killed.

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Doug January 26, 2012 at 04:18 pm

So if someone is holding a fubar and makes moves as though he’s going to swing it onto YOUR head, you’re just going to give him ONE round and call it a day? Bad guys and the stress they cause is not so simple. Some officers may stop at a few rounds, some may stop when the mag is empty.

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Dave January 26, 2012 at 05:32 pm

“NOTHING in this life need 5 shots to get killed.”

I guess you don’t really understand how firearms work, then.

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Adam January 26, 2012 at 06:57 pm

Thank you. I was just about to write something along those lines but you beat me to it. The quick and dirty of the cop shooting 5 times is that in order to STOP someone…not shoot someone, STOP someone, you need to place more than one round in the same general area of a target. The more rounds placed in an area, the greater the overall effect the rounds have on target.

If you really wanna get into stopping power, here’s some light reading…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2011/03/21/ammunition_what_you_need_to_know_about_stopping_power_031711/

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Drugs man January 27, 2012 at 05:45 pm

This guy was clearly on drugs that made him believe he was invincible and enabled him to rip the tazer prongs out of his face and turn around to attack the cop. If they could have shot him once yes, but the result of that would have been that cops face being caved in by the Fubar.

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Beaver Eater January 26, 2012 at 05:53 pm

I would have shot him if he showed up at my front door with that shit. Another Obama supported off the money books…for about $6 in ammo.

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MK262 MOD 1 January 28, 2012 at 03:12 pm

Gust, you have clearly never been in combat and have never seen these doped up savages the media calls insurgents, get shot with multiple rounds from the troops weapons and still move in a threatening manner or still be firing their AK variant weapons at our troops. I understand this is not a combat situation but your comment regarding “NOTHING in life requires 5 shots to get killed.” requires this analogy to even attempt to get your feeble mine to understand what actually kills people. You would probably be the one that wanted the police to send the dog in just to have that guy with the fubar swing at the dog and kill the dog before using firearms. Well, that would have resulted in the police firing back at him just to have the same result, only this time the police would lose a great partner and loyal companion. It is obvious you do not know what you are doing and should keep your mouth shut.

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