Law Student Schools Cop On Open Carry Law

And backs him down:

I was detained by Portland PD officer J McDonald on 26MAY2012. He detains me without suspicion of any criminal activity in violation of Delaware v Prouse. He admits his sole reason for stopping me is my legally carried firearm in violation of US v DeBerry. He seizes my weapon with no reasonable suspicion that I’ve committed a crime in violation of Terry v Ohio. He demands my ID without reasonable suspicion in violation of Hiibel v Nevada

LOL burn.  That’s exactly what I like to see.  As I always say on the blog… if you can’t handle the laws in the state / country / etc.. that you live in, then move.  That especially goes for those PAID to enforce them.  I am pro Law Enforcement, but the fact is there is only one version of the law they are paid to enforce… so if you are a LEO and you have your own agenda, and that includes trying to trick people into waiving their rights, then please do everyone a favor and find a new career.

Thank god for cameras.

So now what?  The officer in the video violated 4 different laws according to the person taking the video.  Will anything happen?  Should anything happen?

Hat tip: Raeshawn

110 COMMENTS - JUMP DOWN ↓ TO ADD YOUR OWN

GPAT June 30, 2012 at 12:12 am

my recent youtube comment in response to this vid:

“love it, awesome, hope to be just like you when I graduate from law school in a few years. Keep it up, dont let anyone tell give you any hate at all bro

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CHAOS June 30, 2012 at 12:14 am

You gotta respect the kid for the level of calm he was able to maintain. I’m not sure I could do the same whilst laying a verbal “smack down” on a cop.

Also, nothing will happen to the cop. His supervisor will most likely brush it off unless the public and media decide to make a big deal about it and let’s be honest, that probably wont happen.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 12:15 am

I havent watched this yet but i hate these videos, they really piss me off. All the cop wants to know is that you are not a felon wandering around with a gun, show him your id and let public resources go on to take care of the next call. I dont care if its not required by law, learn to play nice otherwise OC will be gone.
I am now going to watch this and see if i was correct.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 12:20 am

yeah i was. They just need to change the law so you do have to show id if open carrying, and with d bags like this it will happen soon enough.

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CHAOS June 30, 2012 at 12:29 am

I get what you’re saying but i think the student’s point is that he should have never been stopped nor had to show ID because he isnt breaking any laws and the “man with a gun” calls shouldn’t have gone any farther than a cruise by to make sure he wasnt brandishing the weapon.

the biggest issue that most people see with the “just give them your ID” mentality is that theres “no telling where it will stop” … because by giving up your ID you are essentially waving your right to be a law abiding citizen walking down the street.

Anyone have insight into the CC laws in oregon? Could the cop have taken the “just cover it up” route?

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junyo June 30, 2012 at 12:36 pm

As soon as you have to show ID to speak freely or peaceably assemble, or exercise any of the other basic human rights enumerated in the core legal document of this country.

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Eric July 1, 2012 at 10:02 am

You are correct.

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TomThumb June 30, 2012 at 12:31 am

that’s not the point… the point is that the officer is breaking the law and there for needs to be corrected and punished for his actions… my local police chief rear ended someone witch is a automatic ticket where I’m from and he received no ticket, he should have issued a ticket to himself or ordered a officer to issue it…

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ENDO-Mike June 30, 2012 at 12:31 am

What’s next, get stopped just because a cop pretends to think you’re printing and then ID’s you then grills you on suspicion of concealed carrying? As a non-felon it is perfectly legal in most states… so why should people be harassed?

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CHAOS June 30, 2012 at 12:33 am

cell phone holster wearers beware!

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Heath June 30, 2012 at 12:46 pm

So with this line of thinking, every time a police officer sees someone driving a car they should have the right to stop them and make sure the driver has a license? How about sending cops into a bar to check IDs to make sure everyone is old enough to drink?

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Will July 2, 2012 at 04:02 am

Well, driving without a licence is illegal, so any time you’re in a car, the cops can stop you and ask to check your licence. They have that right since they suspect you of the crime of driving without a licence :p
Same in bars, you can get asked to show your ID because the cops suspect you of being under age.

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Mr. Monaro July 2, 2012 at 12:00 pm

driving a car on publicly maintained roads is a privilege, the right to bear arms is a constitutionally protected right. also you can look underage, you cant really look like a felon.

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Mr Matt October 29, 2012 at 11:24 am

Driving a car on publicly maintained roads may be a privelege but it is still illegal for an officer to stop you without reasonable suspicion. They cannot simply stop a car and demand to see your license. The point of not having to show id transcends people with firearms. Unless you are driving, an officer cannot force you to provide identification.

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Chris February 23, 2013 at 06:03 pm

The right to bear arms IS a constitutionally protected right…for American citizens. How does the officer know the guy in this video is a citizen? What if he were Canadian? What if he were born in France, in the country for school, had acquired an American accent and was carrying a gun?

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Arron June 30, 2012 at 12:44 am

I think if your willing to open carry a gun then your going to have to deal with the extra attention it attracts
but, the cop was totally wrong and I’m sick of seeing videos of cops doing this. If it ever happened to me would I comply? Yes, because I’ll play his game but should the circumstance ever happen? no.

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Jason July 2, 2012 at 02:07 pm

In my state, There have been laws placed to keep you from cc (Even if you aren’t a felon) all the while you can still purchase.
I can purchase. I can open carry. But because of a hazing incident when I was 18 and thanks to a 5 year old law, I can never cc. I have been told by police to have my record expunged, but lawyers say that that won’t work for me. It’s pretty stupid all the laws that have been and are being passed to disarm the public.
Now, many people disagree with me. Again I am not a felon. But I feel that if a felon has served his/her time and paid their debt to society then they should be given their rights back (all of them including the right to keep and bear arms and vote). After all, they have to get a job and pay taxes. Talk about taxation with out representation. That’s the very definition of it.

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Jim P. July 2, 2012 at 10:12 pm

I’m going to mildly disagree with you. At eighteen you were nominally an adult. Actions in that time frame — I pretty much have no problem with limiting your CC for a minimum of ten years. You do a lot of growing in that time. Five years is a little too short from eighteen for me.

I do disagree with the lifetime ban. The eighteen year old who shoved his seventeen year old girlfriend while both were in high school is, probably, going to be different at 35 with school children. The DV lifetime ban is a farce.

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Jason August 20, 2012 at 11:07 pm

Jim. I was 18 like 17 years ago. I can never cc. That’s my issue with the laws being passed in my state.

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Benjamin Blatt June 30, 2012 at 01:09 am

GPAT – Don’t go to law school. I tell that to everyone.

If you do, don’t be like this guy. He cites cases that don’t precisely mean what he thinks they mean, and doesn’t cite the most current or on point cases to support his position. There are better OC cases if you are going to confront an officer, and the one he cites specifically upheld a similar stop (because it was Illinois) and the part he refers to is basically Dicta, that is, not binding as a matter of law.

If he passes the Bar and tries to argue cases in Court in this fashion, he will consistently lose to better prepared attorneys. So don’t be this guy.

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GPAT June 30, 2012 at 01:44 am

too late, I start in August and have a job waiting for me in the family biz on the other side.

As for this guy, so what if his case-law is off? He wasn’t in court, he wasn’t arguing a case and his facts weren’t being checked by an opposing attorney; he was making a stand and I support that. There is a precedent in our country to kiss ass when confronted by a cop, there needs to be those willing to draw the line on those we do not vote for who uphold the law they do not seem to know.

Call him a douche, call him portentous, call him ignorant (for miss-citing rulings), call him what you will: his is doing what every elitist lib is doing all over the country – at least he is on our side. You have to admit, the libs get shit DONE by acting like this (look at omabacare). We NEED more guys with this attitude in Washington being a bit douchey and fighting for our gun rights.

Realistically though, I’m not going to act like this lol (although I would love to work for a pro-gun non-profit and work to protect our 2nd amendment rights.)

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WAGunRights June 30, 2012 at 01:12 am

I was detained a while back in WA. I too stood my ground and refused to give my name. Why should a cop have the right to stop someone for doing something that is legal? Whether is “attracts attention” or now, its not against the law. Coming from the Seattle-area there are plenty of people that do crazy things that cause “extra attention.” I don’t see the cops detaining them for their papers… There is audio of the encounter that I have posted on my blog…

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Max June 30, 2012 at 02:07 am

Haha, best line: “uh, suspenders, keep my pants up…” lol

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Andrew June 30, 2012 at 05:41 am

He handled it like a pro, kept cool and even explained suspenders.

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Andy in West Haven June 30, 2012 at 06:32 am

Um, just because the cop might have been in the wrong it’s okay for people to mention that he wasn’t a complete d-bag about it. This could have got ugly and it didn’t. Perhaps it was due to the camera or perhaps he is normally level headed. Who knows?

As for needing to show your ID that reminds me of how the nazi’s used to ask to see your papers.

What the PD needs to start doing is tell those that call in with “Man with a gun” calls is to tell the person that if he is not waving it around then he is doing nothing illegal. This will help spread awareness of the law. And as someone posted here already, the most the cop needs to do if he responds is to drive by or observe from a distance to see that he or she is not waving the gun around and if not, just keep going.

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FXHummel1 June 30, 2012 at 08:38 am

The fact that the police officer was ‘calm’ and ‘polite’ doesn’t change the fact that the officer was wrong. I watched it twice and am still trying to figure out why they were questioning him about suspenders…

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Mike June 30, 2012 at 09:13 am

His camera was probably mounted on his suspenders and she could probably see the hook had a lens in it.

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Andy in West Haven June 30, 2012 at 09:59 am

I didn’t say he wasn’t wrong, did I?

My point was that it could have been a total a-hole cop and it wasn’t. Cops are people too last I checked. They can get angry and use poor judgement. And for all you know that could have been the first OC’er he’s encountered. I’m sure the cop will not repeat the incident with someone else because he did learn that OC was legal. I bet when he got back in his car it was confirmed to him by someone else on his radio.

But I guess we aren’t allowed to see anything positive in this.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 11:15 am

Cops are people too last I checked. They can get angry and use poor judgement.

As I’ve implied in a my debate with a cop their judgement needs a much higher degree of scrutiny. When they exercise poor judgement, too often, people die.

Mark my words: In combination with the militarization of the police, qualified immunity will be the vehicle that drives us to a police state.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 11:17 am

Sorry, that last line wasn’t necessarily related to the comment I was replying to, but nevertheless relevant to this greater discussion.

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John June 30, 2012 at 10:53 am

You can’t openly wear suspenders. Everyone knows that. :-D

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Tekno June 30, 2012 at 10:16 pm

You can in Idaho – but only if you are a card-carrying member of the centenarian club

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Jason August 20, 2012 at 11:10 pm

I don’t know what that is. But here you can if you’re a skin head.

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philip July 2, 2012 at 07:17 am

Suspenders are dangerous!

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Grindstone July 6, 2012 at 08:36 pm

Arn’t suspenders “shoulder things that go up”?

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Ringo45 June 30, 2012 at 09:00 am

He could file a law suit against the police officer and the police department, but I don’t think the best possible outcome would be worth the cost and time of litigating.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 09:49 am

just remember, if you ever become a felon and cant cc, oc and they cant do anything about it.

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Andy in West Haven June 30, 2012 at 10:04 am

If you are convicted of a felony you are not allowed to own/posess a firearm. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

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John June 30, 2012 at 12:14 pm

Correct. However, given recidivism rates among felons, I doubt the majority are going to be caring. That said, Dave makes a valid point.

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Normster June 30, 2012 at 10:07 am

I never understand why people carry their guns for everyone to see. Is it just to push the tolerance of people and to ASK for confrontations like this kid had? Note to all people who carry open-carry: If you are in a place that is going to be robbed and someone is casing the place out, they will notice your open-carry gun and shoot you first….No one ever knows I have a gun on my side ever unless they know me personally. You carrying your gun should be discrete and a surprise to others…You are asking for trouble when everyone around knows you have a gun and can see it.

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Jim P. June 30, 2012 at 10:49 am

The arguments against OC are weak.

If a potential criminal sees someone carrying a gun, yes they may shoot him first in a robbery/mugging/thuggery. Or they might find an easier target.

If I’m walking around my property (5+ acres) I can run into bad critters. Going into a town or city I can also run into bad critters too. (See point above.)

I can probably slap nylon and unholster as fast or faster than a CC can do it.

Why has society made the thought of OC so odd that it is unacceptable or attention seeking?

Numerous court cases have ruled that the police are to protect and serve the community at large and not you personally. If you are in your home and someone breaks in and the police don’t respond for an hour, you can’t sue them for non-responsiveness. If a thug pulls a knife on you in alley to rob you, you can’t sue the police for not being there.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 11:38 am

Note to all people who carry open-carry: If you are in a place that is going to be robbed and someone is casing the place out, they will notice your open-carry gun and shoot you first

Prove it. Cite some cases of this happening. Think like a common criminal. You going to go for the easy target, or the hard target? How about this or this? Yeah, they’re anecdotes, and the plural is not an anecdote, but until some can prove to me there is a greater risk of being shot first by criminals because I carry openly, I have no reason to stop believing in the deterrence factor.

You carrying your gun should be discrete and a surprise to others

So you would rather be forced to draw your gun from concealment to put a stop to a crime using lethal force than deter a crime with the sight of your gun?

You are asking for trouble when everyone around knows you have a gun and can see it.

It really gets me when our friends sound as bad as our enemies.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 11:46 am

“plural of anecdote is not data” that is

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overkill556x45 June 30, 2012 at 02:04 pm

I’m not against open carry, but I would never do it. Not all criminals are scared of guns. While we’re sharing anecdotes, here’s one about a home invasion where the criminals were fired upon and pressed their attack harder instead of retreating: http://www.gunstories.org/gunstories/story?sid=101

Could it be a deterrent? Sure. But it’s no guarantee. I’d rather keep it concealed. I don’t want to be singled out as ” the guy with the gun”. But that’s a personal thing. Just because I don’t believe in OC doesn’t mean I don’t support the right to do it. The 2A is the 2A and that’s the end of it. Unfortunately, the antis have a louder PR machine than we do and will continue to make carrying a gun sound like carrying a portable nuclear device.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 02:42 pm

Not a bad stance at all.

Ah, yes, read that story before.

And, of course, carrying openly doesn’t guarantee deterrence. Everything’s a tradeoff. Keep in mind that in the case of a home invasion, you *may* be dealing with the more professional of the bunch. Many more people have a gun in the home than who carry outside the home, open or concealed. So they were more likely to be prepared for that. And once the shooting starts, concealed or open is irrelevant, especially in the home. But I know your point is that not every criminal is going to run at the sight of gun.

Frankly, the times that people have taken note of my gun, verbally, most have expressed a sort of relief that if any nutcase busts in and starts shooting, I’m likely to be the one shooting back. I don’t typically break it to them, but I’m not out to be a hero and if I can escape to good cover and concealment, that’s the first thing I’ll do. Probably draw and stay at the ready, as well, until such time as I can get to safety. I’m no sheepdog…if I happen to protect you while protecting myself and my own, fine, but get yer own set of these. ;-)

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jerry June 30, 2012 at 02:09 pm

OC happens because in most states, CC requires a permit but OC does not. In KS, where I live, anyone can OC (with exceptions of specific locations such as proximity to schools, places that serve alcohol, etc.) without license. But in some states, like TX (when I lived there, maybe not so now), a CC permit did NOT allow OC.

In many cases, OC is easier and actually opens one to LESS liability. After all, it you have a CC permit, you had to take a class and shoot a minimum score to pass. If you kill someone, the family can sue that since you were a proficient shooter, you could have just wounded them instead of MURDERING them. Stupid, yes, but it has happened.

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Jason August 20, 2012 at 11:11 pm

Have you even seen my posts. I can’t Legally cc. I HAVE to oc. Som eof us do it because we are law abiding citizens.

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John June 30, 2012 at 10:08 am

Its idiots like this that place a finer magnifying glass on firearms ownership. If you want to walk around open carrying then expect to get a reaction from citizens and learn to deal with those reactions. Thats why people open carry anyway right? To get attention/ be the center of attention. Let the poor cop do his job, make sure everything is good so he can go to the next call and not worry about your stupid agenda.

As a Deputy Sheriff, I can assure you there is no secret police conspiracy to take away your guns and violate your rights. Its extremely hard to become a cop and only the most honest and responsible people become one. No one is out there to violate your rights by making illegal detentions. The cop was legally allowed to detain the open carry guy because there was a report of a man with a gun walking around. The cop was attempting to investigate the call and move on if he found no crime had been committed. The open carry guy prolonged the stop by being difficult. You wouldn’t carry a video camera and a openly displayed gun if you weren’t hoping to get stopped and bothered. Congrats, you go to law school and know some laws. learn some common sense; it will go farther in life.

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jpcmt June 30, 2012 at 10:36 am

No. The actual open carry movement across the country, if you read their forums/blogs, is not to get attention but to assert rights AFTER protecting themselves. They are forced to bring cameras to defend themselves, not to start crap with cops. yes, there’s idiots who do stupid crap like OC an AK in the walmart (there’s a video of it) and challenge people to detain them. But the actual 2A movement any gun owner should support, is not of that nature and IS forwarding positive gun culture.

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 01:10 pm

Its idiots like this that place a finer magnifying glass on firearms ownership. If you want to walk around open carrying then expect to get a reaction from citizens and learn to deal with those reactions.
No, it’s idiots like the one who called the cops who should be fined for filing a false report of a crime. They didn’t report a crime, you say? Then why did the cops respond? Dispatchers should be trained to ask a few basic questions when someone calls with a MWAG report.

First, is it in a holster? Yes? That is perfectly legal (in places where it is). Have a nice day.

Next is he acting in a threatening manner and/or waving the gun around? No? Have a nice day.

Thats why people open carry anyway right? To get attention/ be the center of attention.

Are you sure you’re not a CSGV operative? I’m waiting for the penis comparisons, next.

Let the poor cop do his job, make sure everything is good so he can go to the next call and not worry about your stupid agenda.

Poor cop? He picked his job. Deal with it. The cop initiated the confrontation. You cops need to be made to understand that when you try to do things like this and make requests that are beyond your authority to do so, you will be met with resistance. Legal, morally authoritative resistance.

As a Deputy Sheriff, I can assure you there is no secret police conspiracy to take away your guns and violate your rights. Its extremely hard to become a cop and only the most honest and responsible people become one.

Don’t insult our intelligence. Understand that I am *not* saying that all cops or even the majority of cops are a problem, though I leave that question open for evidence either way. If what you say were true, there would be no Dan Harlesses. Nor would there be a NYPD (100s of cops supported the criminal behavior of their ticket fixing friends), nor a NOPD (Katrina), nor a Spokane PD (saluting a cop convicted for causing the death of Otto Zehm), where institutional thuggery is the rule rather than the exception.

Cross that thin blue line. It is not you vs. the citizens. Adopt the Peelian principles.

No one is out there to violate your rights by making illegal detentions.

Intentions don’t matter one whit if you actually do make illegal detentions.

The cop was legally allowed to detain the open carry guy because there was a report of a man with a gun walking around.

No, he was not legally allowed and as the video showed, he eventually had to back down. I am often that guy with a gun walking around. You think you have a right do detain on that evidence alone?

The cop was attempting to investigate the call and move on if he found no crime had been committed.

Again, was a crime reported? Then what, pray tell, are you investigating? Mere possession and carrying of a gun is not probable cause.

The open carry guy prolonged the stop by being difficult.

So asserting his rights is being difficult? No, the cop was being difficult by insisting on things he had no business insisting on.

You wouldn’t carry a video camera and a openly displayed gun if you weren’t hoping to get stopped and bothered.

No, in some jurisdictions, a camera is self defense against lawless cops. Besides, everyone has a video camera in this age with the prevalence of smartphones. Get used to it. You are under much stricter scrutiny by the public, now, with this technology, as it should be. Politicians are not used to this, yet, either, but it’s here to stay. We will be watching you and fighting you in court (such as Illinois) to guarantee that you will continue to be under the microscope of free citizens’ cameras.

Congrats, you go to law school and know some laws. learn some common sense; it will go farther in life.

Maybe you should learn about the law, if you want to be respected as a “Law Enforcement Officer.”

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markofafreeman June 30, 2012 at 02:53 pm

Something else I posted regarding the whole “guns in locked cars in parking lots” debates where the “Big L” Libertarians have it completely twisted in knots:


No matter what magical properities the hoplophobes want to paint guns with, it’s time they face two facts.

First, it’s property like any other property, and if you want the right to prohibit any specific items I carry in my car, then I demand the same right to ensure your car is clean of any items I find offensive while parked on my property.

Second, it’s NOT property like any other property. It is SPECIALLY protected as a pre-existing, fundamental, natural, human right, codified in the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.

[More]

So unless you can justify some legal right you think you have to inspect my Levis, with no cause other than that they are Levis, while I’m walking down the street minding my own business, keep your grubbing fingers off my gun and your questions about it to yourself.

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Heath June 30, 2012 at 11:19 pm

Well said!

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scott June 30, 2012 at 02:06 pm

If you want to molest little boys, you join the priesthood.
If you want to be a petty thug and tyrant, and push people around, you become a cop.
Many cops are good. But to suggest that only good guys are allowed to be cops is counter-factual.
Read this site for a few weeks, and you’ll never trust another cop.
http://www.policemisconduct.net/
Per capita, cops are much more likely to commit crimes than the average joe.
Government is one big criminal organization, and the police are it’s enforcers.

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cc19 July 1, 2012 at 11:48 pm

Fixed it for ya.

“It’s cops like this that place a finer magnifying glass on law officers.

If you want to walk around harassing law abiding citizens then expect to get a reaction from citizens and learn to deal with those reactions.

Thats why cops wear the uniform and carry a gun right? To get attention/be the center of attention.”

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Joe mama July 2, 2012 at 01:33 pm

As a Deputy Sheriff, of whatever little county you are in, you can assure me of absolutely nothing. Who the hell do you think you are?

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Deisel04 July 2, 2012 at 08:06 pm

Very well put.

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Joe mama July 3, 2012 at 11:30 am

“Its extremely hard to become a cop and only the most honest and responsible people become one.”

Uh huh…oh really. This must be one of your heros:

Meet Maj. Joseph Floyd, Leading Candidate for Most Crooked Cop in America
http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/13/meet-maj-joseph-floyd-the-most-crooked-c

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GunRights4US July 8, 2012 at 06:38 am

I’m sure all you LEOs out there would like the citizenry to be more compliant and less difficult huh? Now hear this Deputy: MY GOD-GIVEN AND CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHTS TRUMP YOUR DESIRE FOR A COMPLIANT AND SHEEP-LIKE POPULACE!

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Jason August 20, 2012 at 11:13 pm

A;so. Just for curiosity’s sake, What felon Open Carries? If they aren’t legally carrying, They cc.

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Mr Matt October 29, 2012 at 11:35 am

The cop is not legally allowed to detain the man or investigate unless he has reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed which he did not. He had a report of a legal occurrence that just so happens to make people uncomfortable. The man did not have an obligation to waive his fourth ammendment rights. As a deputy sheriff you need to learn to observe the laws that are in place to protect the citizens from abuses brought about by law enforcement.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 08:29 pm

@ John-a sound mind. good. it was brought to my attention that in Maine, where this happened, there are open carry laws. Ok. Great. But this guy gets called in. So police show up. Doesn’t he need to then identify himself so the cop can ensure he’s not a felon and further understand (investigate) the situation? Why was the guy called in? Was he doing something to draw attention to himself?

If not, if the cops just let everybody open carry because it is the law, then how do they enforce felons not being in possession? I just don’t get it.

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jpcmt June 30, 2012 at 10:34 am

I for one am happy there’s OCers out there doing what they’re doing: 1) carrying openly for their protection because there isn’t favorable CCW in their state/county, 2) educating the government (cops) in correct policy, 3) taking a stand against tyrannical policy taught to cops in academies which are acceptable to the citizenry. Even here on this gun blog, there’s people who think you should just play along with the fake niceties. Cops do not have your best interest at heart in these stops so no, you should NOTgo along with their unlawful commands and assert your rights. Do not enable them.

I did my part while still in CA by educating the Antioch PD of my intent to open carry when I took my family to parks (which of course were not in GFSZs) just to solicit a written “ok.” The coward chief had a Lt call me and tell me it was a stupid idea and also admit that their policy is to respond to “man with gun” calls and do the 12089 check (to verify the gun is unloaded only). No ID, no detention beyond the loaded check. And on their way. Many OCers in CA have done this, educated many local and county departments and citizens and it’s awesome some people still do their own 2A activism because no, the NRA and other groups aren’t fast enough..especially if it’s not politically viable (like in CA).

When cops lose the “us vs. them” mentality and get better training, this stuff will go on. TO be fair, there’s tons of well educated cops who know our rights and respect them and it’s a good sign of hope. My friends who are cops are all learned in gun rights and I consider them the good part of the government! lol

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Jim P. June 30, 2012 at 11:07 am

Another point on this type of line:

This is the raw video of what happened in the Dallas area:

This biker was driving under the speed limit and a cop stops him to seize his camera for the footage. There was no probable cause, no warrant, no imminent danger. They eventually arrested him for a concealed license plate. You can see the license was bent upward in the video, but there was no proof he deliberately did it. The guy ended up spending hours in prison for it.

Here’s the news story link: http://www.pixiq.com/article/dallas-deputy-arrests-motorcyclist-wearing-head-cam

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty. — Benjamin Franklin

By just handing your ID over because a cop demands it is not the answer.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 04:19 pm

i watched that, then the related dashcam link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&v=L_bFKtx42AM
gotta say, the bikers were being asses and if there was anything on the guys video that would be useful i would want it too

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Jim P. June 30, 2012 at 07:48 pm

if there was anything on the guys video that would be useful i would want it too

That’s fine. Go to a judge and get a warrant.

Anyone doing a video, photography, recording in a public space is not against the law, in general. I have exactly zero responsibility or requirement to turn it over to anyone. Once you get a warrant, then it becomes a case of my right to privacy versus the public good. It also becomes a fifth amendment issue about incriminating myself. (In this case if the rider looked down and my speedometer read 70 in a 65 zone.)

You really need to watch this video and then you can come back and talk rationally about this.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 09:57 pm

nope, you come up with some simple charge like the license plate, arrest the guy then you get to search all you like. After watching what the police were putting up with that day i am all for it. Driving the wrong way down the freeway, handing off something you dont want to be found with to a bike that speeds away and then jumping out the back of the truck and leaving the scene of the stop.
You need to pick better examples.

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Jim P. June 30, 2012 at 10:34 pm

Since you are a fucking troll, I should have known better than to reply to you, but let’s go at it.

The video link that you posted in response had zero to do with the specific case I posted. Yes, there may have been a bunch of motorcyclists on the road that day doing jerky things. If I came up and arrested you because seventeen other motorcyclists blew by me and did jerky things is it justice?

nope, you come up with some simple charge like the license plate, arrest the guy then you get to search all you like.

I am having problems even finding the TX state code for a concealed license plate. I believe it would be a misdemeanor. Most misdemeanor crimes are nothing but a fine, with a small possible jail time. If every misdemeanor required jail time, including speeding tickets required jail time, there would not be enough jails.

After watching what the police were putting up with that day i am all for it.

Then you have no care for your civil liberties. You are no longer allowed to post on this, or any other blog, website or write a letter to the editor because I say so.

Please accept that premise because you refuse to accept that you have 4th and 5th amendment rights.

Driving the wrong way down the freeway,

I will agree that is illegal, but where can you prove it in the video you posted?

handing off something you dont want to be found with to a bike that speeds away and then jumping out the back of the truck and leaving the scene of the stop.

Why is that illegal? If the LEO failed to control the scene then it is on him/her.

Does he have evidence that the lady leaving the scene was involved in criminal activity?

Why did he stop the truck in the first place?

His driving was erratic as well. He pulled across four lanes of traffic, granted with lights on, but almost ran several motorcyclists over/off the road.

And again where does this connect to the motorcyclist that was pulled over in the links I posted.

You have a closed mind. When the cops bend you over and shove a billy club up your ass, please don’t come here and cry you were abused. I have zero sympathy for you.

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 11:06 pm

hahaha poor foolish crack smoking jim. watch the video its all there. Its may or may not be illegal, i have no idea what the rules are in texas for people sitting in a pickup bed when the truck has been pulled over. The point is if there was nothing to hide they wouldn’t have. Civil liberties are only for those who are being civil. The jackass bikers in video 2 deserve none, in the video YOU posted this video is an embedded link so once again do research before you post.
“When the cops bend you over and shove a billy club up your ass, please don’t come here and cry you were abused.” Where do you live?!! Ive managed to go better than 40 years without that happening, you should stop dealing drugs or whatever it is you are doing to draw that kind of attention to yourself. Unless you are into that sort of thing.
I have had my share of stops and searches and they all resulted in nothing as i am a law abiding guy and the officers have moved on to other business. They have a shitty job dealing with assholes all day. Make the part of it they spend with you as nice as possible for all involved. :)
You also have the right to marry a dude, go exercise that one

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smith July 1, 2012 at 12:32 am

“Its may or may not be illegal”

never go full retard.

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Jim P. July 1, 2012 at 01:05 am

hahaha poor foolish crack smoking jim. watch the video its all there. Its may or may not be illegal, i have no idea what the rules are in texas for people sitting in a pickup bed when the truck has been pulled over.

Again, what does your video of the stop of a pickup on the same day as the stop of Chris Moore have to do with it?

The point is if there was nothing to hide they wouldn’t have.

If there is nothing to hide, why do I need to be talking to the “authorities” at all.

What if a cop stepped up to you for no reason and asked “When did you stop beating your boyfriend?” What would be your response? You are using your first amendment civil liberty to post here, even if you don’t realize it. You have a civil liberty to not talk to the cops.

Civil liberties are only for those who are being civil. The jackass bikers in video 2 deserve none,

What do you call probable cause for any contact in your video? Just because the “jackass bikers” were doing things you don’t approve of, was it criminal? Way back when the OWS guy took a dump on a police car, was he being civil or should he have been arrested?

in the video YOU posted this video is an embedded link so once again do research before you post.

The link to the Talking to the Police by Professor James Duane video does come up embedded. That is not a reason to discount it.

“When the cops bend you over and shove a billy club up your ass, please don’t come here and cry you were abused.” Where do you live?!! Ive managed to go better than 40 years without that happening, you should stop dealing drugs or whatever it is you are doing to draw that kind of attention to yourself. Unless you are into that sort of thing.

So have I. I’ve survived to this age without such a horrible encounter.

But apparently you never heard of Abner Louima. Of course that will never happen to you, regardless of how many civil liberties you give up.

I have had my share of stops and searches and they all resulted in nothing as i am a law abiding guy and the officers have moved on to other business. They have a shitty job dealing with assholes all day. Make the part of it they spend with you as nice as possible for all involved. :)

Again — you have every right to give up your rights. Because you want to kiss the ass of the government — don’t ask the rest of us to follow you in your suicide pact.

I refuse to bow down and assume that a cop is right or even in the right.

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Larry July 1, 2012 at 02:18 am

“The point is if there was nothing to hide…”

This phrase always sets my teeth on edge.

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Heath June 30, 2012 at 11:22 pm

Maybe our good pal Dave is one of the cops in these videos?

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dave w June 30, 2012 at 11:41 pm

i wish i made that kinda money. but thats a shit job, i went to a local pd show and tell recruiting night about 6mths ago and after hearing what its really like, no way.

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Curtis June 30, 2012 at 11:16 am

“Illegal” is an imprecise term. The police officer, while wrong, was probably not doing anything that was a crime or a tort. He was probably only breaking constitutional law surrounding criminal procedure; the only consequence (likely) being that any evidence he collected would not be admissible in court.

It is true that when a police officer stops you, you are in an adversarial interaction because he is looking for you to confess to some criminal act, consent to a search that would yield contraband, or otherwise give him probable cause to search you without consent (by saying something suspicious most likely). Therefore you should know your rights and don’t give up anything you don’t have to. Certainly don’t confess to a crime you didn’t commit (people do this for some reason I cannot figure out). However, if you are not wanted, showing your ID can be a fast and easy way to get on your way, and let the cop go find real criminals.

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Jim P. June 30, 2012 at 11:26 am

However, if you are not wanted, showing your ID can be a fast and easy way to get on your way, and let the cop go find real criminals.

Why should I do be stopped in the first place for carrying a firearm?

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Curtis June 30, 2012 at 12:06 pm

You shouldn’t be stopped. I think both showing the ID or refusing would be legitimate choices. It is up to the individual.

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MrMaigo June 30, 2012 at 01:29 pm

next iphone needs to rotate their camera 90 degrees

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Jess Banda June 30, 2012 at 03:02 pm

This dude not only has a big brain, but a giant set of brass ones…

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Punish3r June 30, 2012 at 05:38 pm

that made me smile at the end shut that cop right up

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Church June 30, 2012 at 07:46 pm

I’ve seen this video before… The guy deserves a slow clap in my opinion.

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Barry June 30, 2012 at 07:49 pm

Why exactly did they start talking about the young man’s fashion sense?
“these are suspenders to hold my pants up”

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Federale June 30, 2012 at 08:56 pm

He has to file an official complaint and then file a lawsuit for something to be done.

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Jared July 3, 2012 at 06:24 pm

It’s Portland PD man. His would hit the bottom of a long list of complaints.

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Terry July 1, 2012 at 08:22 am

Someone should put one in that cop’s leg

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Jeep July 2, 2012 at 04:01 am

Oh boy, this is FAR from what I know here in France.
You can’t just talk your way out of an ID control, even though it’s COMPLETELY pointless, given they never write down anywhere the names of the people they check ! But you have to comply when you come across a police officer. Strange country? Yeah, I’d rather say it’s a different approach of the law enforcement.

Anyway, this student, apart from his huge pair of…suspenders, clearly shows one thing :
As a citizen, you’d better be informed because the police may not know the law! This is obvious here, because
1) the cop takes his gun away for illegal and wrong reasons.
2) even if the laws/cases he quotes are not a perfect fit for getting his gun back, he manages to bullshit and confuse and embarass the police officer enough to make him give up the gun. The guy doesn’t have a clue and can’t argue…

You’d better know the law.

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Jim P. July 2, 2012 at 10:31 pm

Just for general purposes the code on stop and identify statutes in Ohio is ORC 2921.29 Failure to disclose personal information.

I think Ohio cops should have it down just from the fact that the “Terry Stop” is the nickname for Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).

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GunRights4US July 8, 2012 at 06:44 am

The first point the statute makes is that there must be reasonable suspicion. If the LEO cannot articulate his reasonable suspicion, then there is no responsibility for the citizen to comply to a demand to identify himself.

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Ninjavitis July 2, 2012 at 01:28 pm

They asked about his suspenders because once he refused to consent to search, they REALLY started looking him over to find any little detail that could qualify for probable cause. The police don’t like to be told no.

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HwyFuzz February 22, 2013 at 07:40 pm

Wrong. The officer received information from a reliable source (communications) that a man with a gun was causing public alarm. This in itself warrants a Terry Stop based on the aforementioned information that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed based on clothing, geographical location, past incidents, etc. This video in itself substantiates legislators to enact tougher carry laws in the state of Maine. The student can argue every case in the world, it is for litigation not for an officer acting in good faith, furthermore he purports federal laws which under the Tenth Amendment means crap to LEO’s. This jackass tried to show up a police officer and the take most promptly stopped not showing the officer or the jackass leaving the scene. I’d love to see this kid civilly tried for this case.

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Jim P. February 22, 2013 at 09:02 pm

Maine open carry

Maine is a traditional open carry state. It is perfectly legal and acceptable to carry a firearm openly. However, you may only carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle, openly or concealed, if you have a Maine permit.

Now let’s dissect your view:

The officer received information from a reliable source (communications) that a man with a gun was causing public alarm.

So someone called 911 to report a person was legally carrying a firearm walking down the street.

This in itself warrants a Terry Stop based on the aforementioned information that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed based on clothing, geographical location, past incidents, etc.

The officer was responding to a person walking down the street with a gun in the holster which is perfectly legal. He did not know the individual from past run-ins. The clothing, that could be seen in the video, looked to jeans, shirt and sneakers. This was the middle of the day and the person carrying did not appear to be intoxicated.. He asked the officer, repeatedly, why he was being stopped.

This video in itself substantiates legislators to enact tougher carry laws in the state of Maine.

Why? Because he was openly and legally carrying a firearm in public? What harm did he cause? Granted it is not common to open carry, but what did he do wrong?

The student can argue every case in the world, it is for litigation not for an officer acting in good faith, furthermore he purports federal laws which under the Tenth Amendment means crap to LEO’s.

The Terry Stop was established by the Supreme Court in 1968 and essentially says:

The name derives from Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person whothey reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity; the Court also held that police may do a limited search of the suspect’s outer garments for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be “armed and dangerous”. When a search for weapons is authorized, the procedure is known as a “stop and frisk”.

That the officer did not know OC was legal in Maine is not the fault of the detainee. The officer was not able to articulate a valid legal reason he was even contacting this person. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

This jackass tried to show up a police officer and the take most promptly stopped not showing the officer or the jackass leaving the scene. I’d love to see this kid civilly tried for this case.

What was he doing that was wrong or even actionable? You have not stated that anywhere. Was it because he recorded an officer in action. What is illegal about that? Was it because he knew more than the officer about the law? You never articulated it.

If you are an example of the view of Law Enforcement, I never want to associate with you in any form or fashion.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 01:19 pm

right? what an idiot.

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Jim P. February 22, 2013 at 08:35 pm

Mike,

The original link to the video stopped working. Here’s the new one: http://youtu.be/jfdEbe7e9GE

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Tanner February 23, 2013 at 11:51 am

However in this case if the student would have bothered to read the WHOLE ruling he was quoting to the cop he would have read this part: “United States v. Walker, supra, that if the tip, though only weakly corroborated in the sense just explained, is that a person is armed, the police are entitled to stop the person and search him for the gun. Armed persons are so dangerous to the peace of the community that the police should not be forbidden to follow up a tip that a person is armed, and as a realistic matter this will require a stop in all cases.” Therefor the stop was justified and the dumbass should have been thrown in jail for failure to provide ID. I am all for cops doing their job right but I am really for law students learning the law and graduating prior to trying to talk law.

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Jim P. February 24, 2013 at 08:21 am

“United States v. Walker, supra, that if the tip, though only weakly corroborated in the sense just explained, is that a person is armed, the police are entitled to stop the person and search him for the gun. Armed persons are so dangerous to the peace of the community that the police should not be forbidden to follow up a tip that a person is armed, and as a realistic matter this will require a stop in all cases.”

Are you referring to this Walker?

How does that coincide with not providing ID after you are stopped for the non-crime of openly carrying a firearm with no implied threat to anyone. What if he was openly carrying a fire extinguisher?

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 06:53 am

Many of you have failed to realize that the initial call of somebody with a gun = all the cop needed to stop this guy. The cop should have been able to articualte that but was probably so dumbfounded by the idiot reciting case law that he had a complete brainfart. Terry vs. Ohio. Read it, know it. When police ask for ID, you give it. They need to know who you are, that you aren’t a felon in possession, etc. You don’t like it, move elsewhere, that’s how it is here.

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Jim P. February 24, 2013 at 07:58 am

They need to know who you are, that you aren’t a felon in possession, etc. You don’t like it, move elsewhere, that’s how it is here.

That logic is so twisted it makes no sense. If I were a felon in possession would I carry it openly? That means that I’m going to be so stupid as to jeopardize my freedom because I know as a felon I can’t have a firearm.

If this had been a call that the guy leaned over the counter and the clerk saw a CCW when he was grabbing a pack of bubble gum, it would be a reasonable question. The guy was walking down the street openly carrying.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 12:07 pm

I am sorry you feel that way. But, you would be surprised how stupid people can be. And finding out of he is a felon or not isn’t the only reason for IDing him. Just saying he has a permit to carry doesn’t suffice. Anybody could say that. Not giving proper ID when asked by a police officer is obstruction of justice. The man in the video being the subject of a call is all the police need to ask him for ID and yes, he has to give it.

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Heath February 24, 2013 at 01:39 pm

So if I call the police and tell them my neighbor is driving a car should the police stop him to make sure he does indeed have a drivers license and that he isn’t a felon or in the country illegally?

Those, like you, who defend and support the police state and the erosion of our rights are beyond my understanding. If you want to give up YOUR rights, ok. But stop there and quit supporting the removal of mine.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 02:37 pm

driving a car isn’t illegal nor is having a gun. BUT in both cases, you need a license/permit to do so legally. if you said your neighbor doesn’t have a license, they could check that out and verify it. if indeed your neighbor didn’t have a license, then yes, they would go stop him.

police, however, cannot look up if joe blow has a permit to carry or not. so stopping the “guy with a gun” that people are concerned about and verifying he has the proper means to do so isn’t illegal on the cops’ part. with your rights, comes responsibility.

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Jim P. February 24, 2013 at 05:40 pm

police, however, cannot look up if joe blow has a permit to carry or not. so stopping the “guy with a gun” that people are concerned about and verifying he has the proper means to do so isn’t illegal on the cops’ part. with your rights, comes responsibility.

In Maine, as in most other states, YOU DO NOT NEED A PERMIT TO OPENLY CARRY A GUN in Maine. Period. End of sentence.

You keep saying that the cop was responding properly. No he wasn’t. The dispatcher should have asked, “Is anything else going on?” If the response was no, then it is perfectly legal. The cop should have driven by and said, “Yeap, he has a holstered firearm.” As soon as he started asking about a perfectly legal activity he was in violation of the first, second, fourth and fifth.

I do not have to prove I am legally able to posses and carry a firearm. This is why the fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination exist as well as the right against search and seizure in the fourth. You have to have probable cause that I am doing something wrong.

Again in most states openly carrying a firearm does not require a permit and is not illegal.

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Jim P. February 24, 2013 at 04:53 pm

The man in the video being the subject of a call is all the police need to ask him for ID and yes, he has to give it.

That gets into the the Hiibel. And assuming it is Maine there is no Stop and Identify law. So how is that obstruction of justice? If I I’m a 6 ft white guy walking down the street four blocks from a bank robbery — and the suspect was described as about 5 ft and black, do you think you have a reason to stop and identify me?

From the beginning there is no violation of the law. The call was a man is walking down the street carrying a firearm in a holster. That is not illegal. Maine is an open carry state. There is no “specific and articulable facts” that says a crime occurred or is about to occur. There is no “totality of the circumstances” either. Just because Joe Blow, who doesn’t know the law either, called does not make this in the least bit suspicious.

I will grant open carry is not common, but there was absolutely no known violation of any law.

I’m sorry you think you are a god that can read minds, but you still have not come up with a reason to even talk to the guy, let alone touch him or demand his ID.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 08:04 pm

1. I thought it was a different state. I am sorry I missed that it was Maine.

2. I am going off the laws I know, the laws in my state.

3. Thanks for arguing with me. Its been fun.

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Jim P. February 24, 2013 at 09:14 pm

There are about 24 states that Open Carry is legal.

I’ll agree the argument was fun, but did you learn anything?

The reason I ask is that if your state is an open carry state, are you going to still insist on ID for a legal action?

Are you willing to acknowledge that “suspect” was in the right?

Because if you can’t grasp the ideas, and continue to proceed under your existing terms, you are only aggravating the split between the day to day citizen and law enforcement.

If you walk up to me, as LEO, for no reason and ask me for ID just because I’m on the street I will, semi-politely, tell you to fuck off. I don’t care where in the U.S. I am. If I have the time, I’ll even take the arrest.

The concept of “Papers, please;” I find so offensive that I will fight it to my dying breath.

Can you at least acknowledge that you don’t believe in the “Papers, please;” attitude?

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 09:54 pm

In my state, no, it is not open carry. You need a permit to carry concealed.

Police also have the right, in my state, to identify each person called to their attention. Meaning, if I were a police officer and somebody called in an individual for whatever reason, I’d respond to the scene and identify the person by driver’s license or other ID. If everything was kosher, I’d move on. It’s not harassing to do so. Its officer safety, knowing with whom they are speaking. Thats the law as I know it.

That’s why, I don’t understand why the guy didn’t just show ID? Is that not the law there? I am just genuinely (can’t spell that) confused by it? Even if it is an open carry state, officers should still be able to verify that the individual isn’t a felon doesn’t have warrants, et., correct? I know I have said this before and got the response “felons wouldnt be stupid and open carry.” You’d really be surprised how stupid people can be. Seriously.

if the laws aren’t the same, my bad.

And I did learn that Maine is an open carry state. I didn’t even know there was such a thing. I’ve only ever heard of carry/conceal, for which you need a permit.

I learn something new everyday and if it is pointed out to me that I am wrong, I can live with that.

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AEM February 24, 2013 at 10:48 pm

Also, now that I am learning. Can anybody go to Maine and open carry. Like, if I visit there, can I walk around with a holstered gun? Or is it just Maine citizens? And if so, how does a cop, without IDing a person that was called in on by concerned citizens, know if the person is from Maine or not?

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Jim P. February 25, 2013 at 06:13 am
AEM February 25, 2013 at 01:11 pm

Good to know. It just boggles my mind that you don’t need a permit or any kind of background check to be carrying. Only because I deal with the shits of my town daily. I would NOT want any of them able to openly carry a gun. Creeps me out. But thanks for educating me.

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Steve March 3, 2013 at 12:24 pm

Did it ever occur to you this guy could have been a cuckoo on his way to shoot up a movie theater or school full of kids all he had to do is say he has A PERMIT here it is and be on his way. This isn’t the wild west if i saw someone s

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Jim P. March 3, 2013 at 03:13 pm

Did it ever occur to you that that the guy didn’t need a permit to openly carry a firearm? And that all the cuckoos on who shot up a movie theater or school full of kids didn’t have permits either?

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jedikight129 July 4, 2013 at 07:15 am

As far as I am aware in the usa if stopped on the street and asked to identify my self all I have to do is give a name and possibly a D.O.B I don’t have to produce ID even if I have such documentation in my possession because there is no mandatory rule saying I must carry id. The exception to this is those who are in the country on a green card must carry it at all times. So I would happily identify myself to an officer but if they asked for id I would and have tell them to get bent.

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