A Case Against Soldiers On US Bases Carrying Guns

Fat-POG-Military-Marine-USMC

From Grant in the comments on my post about Trained US Soldiers Can’t Be Trusted With Guns:

First and foremost: none of you fanboys have an iota, not a single ounce of justification or foundation to call this man a disgrace. You want to play range ninja on the weekend? Fine. You want to cut and paste other people’s thoughts onto M4 Carbine.net as a mechanism to ignore the purposelessness of your own lives and the sting of unrequited childhood ambitions? You do that. This man received the Congressional Medal of Honor, two Silver Stars, and three Bronze Stars. He is why you people play with guns in the first place. Men like him gave boys like you the right to bear arms in the first fucking place. If you want to judge his opinions, admit to yourselves he is far informed than you, and act accordingly. And if you have the honor of meeting such a human being, you will stand he speaks to you, and you will call him “Sir.” He’s been on the line, knows men, and knows soldiers, and has far, far more insight into the capabilities and shortcomings than any of your ilk can possibly garner from the internet without ever having lived the life of an Airborne Infantryman.

I got out of the Army as a Platoon Sergeant specifically because of people like this Scott S. douchebag. The sense of entitlement, ignorance and dismissal of the greater good, and insolence of this current generation is the reason why the military continues to decline. (No, the current administration is exactly helping either.) Poor soldiers become poor leaders, who cave to pressures of even poorer politicians. Standards lower, and good men leave, or die. Then, next thing you know, they’re letting women into the Infantry. More good men leave, and standards are lowered even more to accommodate the leftovers. Rinse, wash, repeat.

I can guarantee you unequivocally that no one who has made comments on this video thus far have ever served in a combat arms role in the military. (And by that, I mean Infantry or Special Operations. Nothing else.) First, no one having served those in those billets would say such disparaging things about that man. Second, you clearly have no idea about how poorly trained soldiers are. The vast majority of the Army is comprised of POG’s. (That stands for ‘Personnel Other than Grunts,’ before you ask.) Until you have spent fifteen months burning your own shit and living off one bottle of water a day to drink and wash with, you don’t understand the disgusting, useless, vile creature that is a POG. They have no business carrying weapons. Absolutely none.

Trust me on this, gentlemen. When you take your bi-weekly drive into a big FOB and risk getting blown up to take a shower, and you see fat, worthless POG fucks walking around like zombies, you would be far more comfortable with them not having weapons than with them carrying one every day. When a shitfuck 42A admin douche uses the magazine well of their M4 to hold a pack of cigarettes; or a inbred 88M (truck driver) lifts his entire weapon literally by the trigger with not one, but two fingers jokingly doing “M4 curls” to make his fat buddies laugh, never will you think, “I’ll be safer with these retards carrying weapons on post when we get back.” In garrison, POG’s fire their weapons once a year. To zero and fire. That’s it. Muzzles everywhere, flagging everyone and everything. John Milton would handle a firearm more safely. And MP’s? Riiiiiight. They do nothing but issue speeding tickets. (Again, not making that up. Trust me, they are not door-kickers.) Do you think they dry fire, much less go to the range? Do you want to talk about officers? I cannot express how poorly officers handle their pistols. They literally fire fewer than one hundred rounds a year. Tea cups and wrist grabs galore. All with one eye shut. I fucking swear to you. They then deploy, buy a FOB bra (shoulder holsters that make them think they’re fucking MacArthur, despite the fact that they never leave the wire, and the fact that “Battle Captain” is POG-speak for “TOC bitch”) from hajj, and literally never clean or even handle their weapon again for the rest of the year. Then they wonder why we laugh at them to their faces. Watch “First Blood” again, and you will know exactly what I’m talking about. Those kind of soldiers. And if one of you want to say something about how Marine POG’s are any different, you clearly have never been to Camp Leatherneck.

Do you think suicides wouldn’t increase stateside? Do you think liberals wouldn’t jump all over that shit like a homeless dude on a French fry? Under the auspices of caring about veterans, no less? And don’t even get me started on the gang problem in the Army, particularly at leg (non-Airborne) bases. There is no way to address this without sounding racist, but I’ll go for it. We (the Airborne Infantry community and beyond) call Ft. Hood ‘Ft. In-da-Hood.’ 10th Mountain? 10th Motown. (Yeah, that sounds pretty racist, I realize.) But, it is what it is.

I understand that it is impossible to understand what actual military life and training is like as a civilian. Just know this. Colonel Jacobs may seem like a dick. But that behavior is most likely fueled by seeing uninformed idiots muddy the waters of an incredibly complicated issue with the rights to free speech that men like him helped create. So troll away, because you’re a fucking moron, and that’s what morons do. But leave defending the nation to the few professionals that are left. Call of duty, for some, isn’t a game. Go blow Chris Costa.

(And it’s ‘MOH,’ fucktard. And it’s ‘received,’ not ‘won.’ It’s not an X Box achievement, pussy.)

Camron-Bill-Oreilly-U-MadWhoa.  Ok well now I see the other side to the argument, but I still think why give up protection just because of some idiots who you don’t think can be trusted with firearms?  If we were going to start doing that, we might as well make it a million times harder to get a carry permit in general.  Is Grant mad for good reason? He’s getting trolled pretty hard over in the other comments, but hopefully we can bring some more discussion here.

70 COMMENTS

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Sal T. April 8, 2014 at 01:03 am

You know those unstable, angry, small penis types the other side is always talking about?…

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 10:56 am

^ this

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Steve April 8, 2014 at 03:05 am

While I wholeheartedly agree with you Grant, only 0.45% of this nation serves. Of that like 2% are SOF and 8% Infantry. Nobody really has balls anymore. You are fighting an uphill battle with these weekend warrior types.

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:04 pm

Basically yes. As the small dick comment above this proves, the Xbox kids are out in force.

As a former Airborne Infantry soldiers, combat veteran, and card carrying All American Association member (don’t ask), I agree with most of Grant’s rant.

The majority of the military are POG bitches getting off on the stupidest shit you could imagine. I reclassed to IT when I joined the reserves, and the shit I saw in soft skills AIT still makes me shake my head to this day.

At AIT they though I was nuts (along with all the other reclassing combat arms guys). No, I was Infantry.

If you ever serve an infantry, doing a 10 mile run in the morning, and see all the fat assed females on the side of the road, out of uniform, walking slowly doing “PT”, you’d understand Grant’s attitude.

However, he and I differ on our takeaway.

My opinion is that concealed weapon permit holders should be able to carry on a military base just like they would in town. This means private weapons, held by soldiers or civilians alike, with the CCL.

Why? Multiple reasons. But I won’t list them unless someone asks because I don’t want to write a book here.

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devon April 8, 2014 at 05:12 am

I guess he has no idea how many civilians and even police officers have the same training lowball training reqs and fails to realize how many ccw permits are out there now conus wide.

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DaJ April 8, 2014 at 06:05 am

I was in the Guard until I got sick, and declared medically unfit. Can’t go to war when your own immune system is trying to kill you.

I can’t believe this rage-oholic served in the Army. There were guys in my unit I downright hated, but at a personal level. Yes, different MOS pick on each other, but never in my life did I experience anything like the hatred and vitriol this guy spouts towards the majority of his fellow soldiers.

Combat logistics will teach you it takes about 7 troops in support to make 1 trooper survivable in combat. There need to be supply (quartermaster and ordinance) and transportation for food, ammo, equipment, water. Constant maintenance in sensitive equipment needs to be performed. Heath and sanitation needs to be established, food prepared, etc. One would think that an E-7 would understand that.

As to the weapons handling skills of non combat troops. That is a matter of training. For years, there has been a undercurrent in the military to improve the weapons training and qualifications for non combat troops. In the current War on Terror, many of our casualties come from the ambush of vehicles, putting transportation and supply units in the direct line of attack. Giving these non combat units combat training will increase their effectiveness and survivability. It will also act as a deterrent against attack, when insurgents start to learn that any unit picked at random is likely to kick their ass.

As for Col. Jacobs. Yes, he was awarded the MOH. Yes, that entitles him to a certain amount of respect. But, that is not a blank check for him to be a jerk to John Lott, trounce on American civil liberties, establish policy, or be the recipient of genuflection. Welcome to America Grant, where something, something, all men are created equal, something, something, endowed with inalienable rights…

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:08 pm

You were a nasty girl POG bitch who got boarded out. STFU

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 05:37 pm

Very professional.

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TheBear April 9, 2014 at 01:52 am

I’m professional in the civilian world. When talking about my service, I revert back to the young man who screamed, “Blood blood blood makes the grass grow green Drill Sergeant” for several months.

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DaJ April 9, 2014 at 06:46 am

Bear,

If god forbid, you get hit by an IED. Do me a favor, make sure you call the medical specialist a POG bitch while he is clamping off your femoral artery and placing an IV so you don’t bleed out and die. It’s nice to know that we are appreciated.

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032125 April 9, 2014 at 01:30 pm

Amen. As soon as I hear “POG” spill from a soldier’s lips, a switch goes off in my brain and all I hear thereafter is Charlie Brown parent speak. The amount of brainwashing that it takes to get men into that mindset won’t be broken through casual conversation. It’s like shouting at a potato and expecting results.

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Jake April 9, 2014 at 06:41 pm

Hahaha oh little POG’s and their feelings. Grunts bash on POG’s because being a grunt is a badge of honor. We are proud of it. This doesn’t mean that deep down we don’t appreciate you guys and all your hard work. But just as a few grunts, doing what grunts will do, ruin it for the majority, a few (or many) POG’s, being lazy and whiny, ruin it for the majority as well. And speaking for grunts everywhere, Doc’s and Combat Engineers are never referred to as POG’s by combat veterans. They may not be grunts, but there duties set them apart. Because you made the comment you did, I can take a guess that you aren’t a medic and are more likely a clerk or motor-T. Or maybe the Army is just ran a little differently. Either way, turn that frown upside down… nobody will know the difference when you’re a civilian anyways.

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TheBear April 10, 2014 at 09:34 am

^ This. All of this.

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David Mortimer April 12, 2014 at 06:15 pm

+1

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MrMaigo April 8, 2014 at 06:36 am

Arming everyone is stupid and impractical for the duties most people have, sure, but WHY are bases gun-free-zones?

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Scott April 8, 2014 at 07:27 am

I had a lengthy discussion with some friends that served (and still do) in the Army + Marines. They said that in days gone by (15 years ago?), Officers were required to carry sidearms with them on base to keep the order and patrol the ranks. Why this practice was removed begs the question – had this practice been in place, could the loss of life been mitigated/reduced? With such a diverse population on these bases– meaning families, contractors, civilians — it certainly isn’t practical or safe to have everyone carrying a weapon (think thousands of weapons), but having extra manpower with the training and AUTHORITY (important!) to make split second decisions could be the deterrence needed.

It appears our military has the the same problem we do as civilians — police response time if/when an incident occurs. Life is risky.

One more thing – the guy with the weird eye brows is a douche. Have some respect, and stop interrupting people.

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achmed April 8, 2014 at 09:27 am

Along the way somehow it became unimportant for officers to be competent with weapons. As soon as the golf courses came in so you could cut a cushy deal for a defense contractor job after retirement. Sad . . .

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Cargosquid April 9, 2014 at 08:29 am

I like this idea.

OR, implement armed watchstanders.

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Bill #2 April 8, 2014 at 07:29 am

The poster off that sounds like one of those wonderful people that makes me proud to be a civilian, that way I can’t be forced to respect and interact with them.

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Dieter April 8, 2014 at 07:38 am

Hey Grant, I hear 22 vets a day kill themselves, why don’t you make it 23 today.

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Levi B April 8, 2014 at 08:14 am

Military service does not mean your thoughts on an issue trump others. Appeal to authority fallacy.

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Steven April 8, 2014 at 08:47 am

No it doesn’t. However, it means first hand knowledge of the situation in the military.

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:14 pm

^ This.

I may hate Grant as a person, but his first hand experience is valid.

I didn’t exactly enjoy my time in the 82nd, asshole NCOs made it unenjoyable. It’s fucking rad when your squad leader wakes you up at 3am to do a room inspection, and you know it’s because his fat, cheating wife who shits out kids just kicked him out of their messy, nasty ass house. But God help you if your shit isn’t straight. He’ll give you an Article 15 (take your pay and possible bust you down) just because he’s mad and wants to take it out on someone.

Maybe Grant is one of those guys. Maybe not. I don’t know. But his opinions of POGs vs combat arms is spot on.

All that said, I think it’s irrelevant. CCLs are CCLs. Soldiers can’t randomly carry around military weapons anyway – the controls are too tight. This issue ultimately boils down to privately owned weapons, and I don’t see a reason why military bases should be any different that the city outside it.

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AmmoDawg January 31, 2016 at 02:41 am

Bear,
Granted its been nearly a decade since I was in but I deployed to the stan and was attached to the 82nd. I was with the cock of the Marne. 82nd was like heaven for eleven and a half months until I medivacced. 3ID was following TRADOC regs (basically, more to it but not gonna put it here). I didnt see any of that crap Grant described except for one thing: a buddy of mine about lost his foot when a self-righteous E2 was on ECP with said buddy. The jackass was in the turret and, supposedly, “cleaned the weapon” (his words. weapon was M249) but didnt clear it first. he shouldnt have even “cleaned” it on ECP but long story short he dropped the bolt closed and cooked off several rounds. He got an ass chewing and “extra duty” for two weeks. I feel he should have been court martialled for attempted man slaughter IMHO. Is it really that bad nowadays?

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032125 April 9, 2014 at 01:38 pm

Yep. A fallacy is a fallacy, iron clad and incontrovertible. The person making the argument may be making truthful statements, but the use of a fallacy doesn’t prove anything.

I saw a tiny slice of the military from one limited perspective, but I don’t pretend to absolute knowledge. People’s experiences vary wildy from unit to unit and station to station.

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Gwolf April 8, 2014 at 08:25 am

Here is an idea that will rub both the pro 2A and Antis both the wrong way, but what about a DoD issued CCW? Good for carry on posts throughout the U.S., with whatever rank, training and qualification requirements they want to splat at it? And hey, as extra bonus, when a guy retires from the service and he goes out ‘qualified’ he gets covered under something like LEOSA.

Doable? Better than nothing?

The original poster sounds like he hates everyone who doesn’t meet the mythical standards of the characters from his boyhood adventure novel readings. Hates other soldiers, hates officers, hates the Marines, hates civilians, hates fat people and hates truck drivers, all of whom don’t deserve to lick the dirt off his boot. Frankly his attitude is exactly the same as police who say “We’re the only ones trained enough to handle this awesome responsibility.” Yeah, well, maybe in fact that is true, but unfortunately or fortunately (depending on your perspective), Constitution says…suck it.

Laughable that he lambasts others for their sense of entitlement. Send us a photo of yourself in ten years from now when you’re sporting the beer gut spilling over the top of your Wranglers and telling everyone at the job site what a tacti-stud you were back in the day. Thanks for your service though, seriously. Even if you’re a total asshole.

(No offense to those who sport the Wranglers.)

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 11:03 am

+1

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:26 pm

“The original poster sounds like he hates everyone who doesn’t meet the mythical standards of the characters from his boyhood adventure novel readings. Hates other soldiers, hates officers, hates the Marines, hates civilians, hates fat people and hates truck drivers, all of whom don’t deserve to lick the dirt off his boot. Frankly his attitude is exactly the same as police who say ‘We’re the only ones trained enough to handle this awesome responsibility.’”

Being combat arms kind of sucks. All you really have is the pride, so it gets taken a bit far. I mean, you don’t even really have job skills. When I got out, I found out really quick that training how to kill people for almost 4 years didn’t exactly give me an amazing resume in the civilian world. The OP’s opinion and tone sounds pretty much exactly like you’d get from most squad leaders or platoon sergeants in a line unit.

Career combat arms soldiers tend not to be happy-go-lucky, smiling, tap dancing people.
———————————–
“Yeah, well, maybe in fact that is true, but unfortunately or fortunately (depending on your perspective), Constitution says…suck it.”

Good point. Seriously.

——————————–
“Laughable that he lambasts others for their sense of entitlement. Send us a photo of yourself in ten years from now when you’re sporting the beer gut spilling over the top of your Wranglers and telling everyone at the job site what a tacti-stud you were back in the day. Thanks for your service though, seriously. Even if you’re a total asshole.”

Hey!! I resemble that comment! And as an x military asshole, thank you for the thank you.

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Gwolf April 8, 2014 at 09:22 pm

Hehe. Well I’ve had time to wash the sand out of my former-POG vagina. :-)

Apologies to all for taking it to the personal level instead of sticking to the issue and for being an asshole myself about it.

I shall resume stuffing packs of Newports into my magazine well. Out.

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Rich April 8, 2014 at 08:46 am

I agree with DaJ on this one. Grant is over the top. His attitude is ugly at best. I’d send him for a psych eval.

As I commented on the previous post – I think Jacobs was using a rhetorical trick, using an extreme example and arguing against it. There are so many other options. Let me list a few: optional carry, officer carry, carry by those who pass a regular (perhaps MORE than once a year) qualification.

As to telling Lott to shut up … I’m with Jacobs on that one. He should be allowed to speak without interruption. That said, Jacobs is a genuine hero, but that doesn’t make him infallible.

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Linoge April 8, 2014 at 08:56 am

Speaking as a veteran, I will state that none of the awards Colonel Jacobs received makes him an expert or authority on… anything, really, except the incidents and situations necessary to receive those awards.

Likewise, speaking as a veteran, you will largely discover that the military is comprised of much the same types you will find in the civilian world – you have your morons, you have your slugs, you have your hard-chargers, you have your paper-pushers, and so forth.

Here is the real shocker, though, that Grant apparently will have an aneurysm over, though – those “POGs” can, and quite probably do, have permits to carry a firearm outside of base, and yet concealed carry permit holders are, on average, more law-abiding and less accident-prone than non-permit-holding citizens.

No one is arguing that we should arm everyone on-base, just as no one is arguing we should arm everyone off base. But, as someone recently expressed on the Facebooks, if you cannot be trusted with a firearm, how can you be trusted with subordinates?

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:27 pm

^^ This.

POGs invalidate the whole “all military should carry” thing, but I also believe that anyone with a license, including POGs, should be able to carry.

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achmed April 8, 2014 at 09:07 am

It’s great that Jack Jacobs won the medal of honor. However you can be incredibly brave, win the medal of honor, and still be wrong about almost everything. Exhibit 1: Almost everything that comes out of John McCain’s mouth.

I was a guard officer, won my first EIC in my first military pistol “match” if you could call it that – it was easy compared to civilian competition and any decent IDPA or USPSA shooter would also have won an EIC. I served in Northern Iraq, in 2004, field artillery turned into “in lieu of MPs” and we got shot at and killed the enemy just fine, thanks. Perhaps not every night like infantry, but we were not hanging on the FOB.

On the issue, yup you are right it ain’t Tom Clancy’s army and lots of soldiers and marines suck and can’t be trusted with weapons. They are POGs. So let’s train them better or reject the POGs. But in general it is absurd on the face of it that nobody (other than some MPs) can be armed on a damn military base. In the original video the dangers of arming some more qualified shooters on post, perhaps with some competency checking and perhaps over a certain rank, were completely blown out of proportion by Jacobs and the infobabe on the video.

There’s this myth or idea that just because someone was in the Army or kicked ass or something we should just trust him on everything (calling Randy Cunningham). $100 says Jacobs was a lefty before he ever joined or did whatever he did. It’s how you were raised and what your own worldview is. Your world view is “elitist” .

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Bill #2 April 8, 2014 at 01:46 pm

+1 Preach it.

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Denver Chris April 8, 2014 at 09:25 am

Hey Grant – whenever you feel like taking a few minutes to chill out, I’ll roll up a fatty for you. You need it, bromantic.

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Highjak86 April 8, 2014 at 09:57 am

As a Vet the problem I see with this logic is that the writer’s solution to Soldiers, Marines, etc who have poor firearm handling skills is to keep firearms out of their hands. No one learns anything using this logic and the whole fuckin’ reason why these asshats can’t handle a firearm correctly is because they rarely touch one to begin with. They should be handling firearms in a controlled environment more so than they already do in order to instill (or force if need be) proper safety and respect for the firearm.

You also want to sit around and bitch about how X Soldiers and X Marines with X MOS can’t handle a firearm properly, but you’re missing the big issue. You want to sit here and say that only specific “POG” units are the ones with issues… get fucking real. If I had a nickel for every moron I saw that couldn’t handle a firearm correctly… INCLUDING COMBAT ARMS… I’d be fucking rich. Get off your ‘only grunts can handle firearms properly’ horse. Your holier than thou attitude regarding Combat MOS’s is comical and inaccurate.

Blah, blah, blah… Airborne Infantry… blah, blah. STFU. Is it practical to arm everyone? No. Should everyone in the military have a firearm 24/7? Fuck no. That doesn’t mean there are Soldiers, Marines, etc who are more than qualified to handle that task.

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Rob April 8, 2014 at 10:19 am

Grant is confused why so many of us are angry. His, “only the elite should be armed,” is the exact same angle the antis keep pushing for total disarmament. Is it really any different from, “you don’t need it, it’s not your job,” or, “only police and military should have guns because they’re trained.” If anything his argument is promoting second class citizenship for our servicemen and women…. unless they’re SEAL Team 6.

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 11:00 am

^ My thoughts exactly. This is how the citizens become disarmed. Living life is a risk. having freedom is also a possible risk. When you separate people into different classes of rights that’s when you have tyranny.

It’s not anyone’s business what people choose to do with their rights and liberty.

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Daybreak April 8, 2014 at 11:19 am

That WM in the picture is fucking hot, she had me at mouth breathing. Think i’m gonna get a contract marriage with that ton of fun, then spend the rest of my time catting around with all the Hinas out in O’side! Spending all her money at the E-club on ma drank!

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achmed April 8, 2014 at 12:45 pm

That that thing is apparently a Marine is breathtaking in a horrible way.

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:28 pm

She’s pretty much par for the course for military females over 21.

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Gwolf April 8, 2014 at 09:30 pm

I take it that the general consensus is that she will not be a candidate for the Marine infantry officer school?

Dat’s sexist!

To quote Nigel “What’s wrong with being sexy?”

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st4 April 8, 2014 at 05:34 pm

Think she’ll be on the next SHOT calendar? I hope so!

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AJ187 April 8, 2014 at 01:50 pm

Anyone that thinks anything done during the “war on terror” was in preservation of our freedoms is already declaring themselves ignorant to the history of our foreign policy. It’s a nice thought and a wonderful propaganda piece, but let’s get real. That’s the kind of juvenile, self righteous thought process I’d expect from someone conditioned to believe all American forces do overseas is honorable and positively effecting the lives of their civilian counterparts. Instead it drains the taxpayer pockets, makes the world more volatile and creates the very conditions the author of this post is so vehemently against. In summation, the only viable value of all this is the irony it creates. Which I do enjoy.

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Seb April 8, 2014 at 02:17 pm

Grant. Calling Grant. You here Grant?

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dgdimick April 9, 2014 at 01:21 pm

I think he sobered up, or his Mom took the keyboard away.

Endo-Mike, thanks for setting up this area so we can all be assholes for a bit, and not scare-off the newbe’s

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d0zer April 8, 2014 at 02:29 pm

Let the leveler heads prevail here. It would appear that Grant conflated some ad hominem attacks on Col. Jacobs with an overall disrespect of the military and those who serve–and then the trolls who “be trollin'” didn’t help. He did have some good points:

1) The “POG” thing: It’s really a side issue, but if you haven’t served, you wouldn’t understand–and no, I’m not being patronizing here. The infantry gives “POG’s” crap for being POGs and in turn they give us crap for being knuckle-dragging idiots, too stupid to be in any MOS that requires a brain. It’s not a new rivalry.

Is every infantryman more fit and a better shooter than every “POG”? Hell the F-no. But taken as an MOS by MOS comparison? Hell yes they are. And that’s the way it should be.

2) The “officers” should carry argument… So, just having a college degree, (in most cases the only dilineating factor between an officer and an enlisted), makes one more qualified to carry? NO, just no.

This whole issue is not an “either-or” argument. If all sides remove the posturing and ad hominem attacks, I think we all want the same thing: the ability to quickly mount a competent response to any threat that presents itself on a military base. To that ends, some sort of carry permit, awarded on the basis of merit and not MOS, seems the best compromise. And read “awarded on the basis of merit” to mean having met and passed a rigorous set of training standards, annually.

Also, civilians would do well to remember that much of the reasoning, and laws, governing their day to day life, often does not apply to military personnel.

Sorry for the relatively long-winded reply, but this debate was straying kind of far afield of where it needs to be. And lastly, I don’t know where the pic of that “thing” was found, but no way, no how is that a Marine– WM or otherwise.

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 02:52 pm

This is probably the most level headed reply in the whole thread.

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Cargosquid April 9, 2014 at 08:40 am

Speaking as a retired Navy Vet…

Every single negligent discharge on our base in Kuwait was committed by infantry. How do I know that? They were the only ones carrying their arms. The “Pogs” kept theirs in the armory. The infantry were moving North or coming South.

Furthermore, since we are talking about carrying pistols….. just what are the qualifications that infantry, especially enlisted infantry have in pistols? I didn’t see much pistol qualifications. I went to a couple of matches and out shot a few combat arms types. Still lost…but did better than they did.
The ones that shot best were all shooters in the civilian world.

If there is a problem with lack of training…fix it. Set up a system of armed people. Fix the security hole. THAT is the problem. It doesn’t matter how it gets done.

And Grant……this “Pog” will let you off load your own freaking gear from the ships….see how you like going to war without your gear.

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Scott s April 8, 2014 at 02:59 pm

Wow… I had no idea such a simple comment would lead to complexity of intents.

For me: Served 8 years in US Army as 71Q, 11B, 18D; 1982-1990; Exited SFC 1st SFG Special Mission Unit; had plenty of experience playing in the dark and the light of armed conflict, with wounds to show for it

Please do not assume anything about anyone.

I will still keep it simple:
1. being awarded medals for honorable/harrowing action is just that; you are still made smarter nor more intelligent, only a certain band of experience;

2. in the capacity/context in which we served we were always carrying, mostly directed to do do(our duty and all) not just for the type of situation we are currently discussing(yes some real actions did occur);

3. though upon signing a contract upon service in the military we give up our rights as a citizen, I, as well as those I served with knew that it was our duty to protect and defend all others(even those whom do not believe as we/you/I do): This is a right and a responsibility no one should give up lightly, as some humans can and do act horrifically against one another far to often.

Treat each other well. If they can’t, send them for addition training and understanding. If this fails send them to their “maker”. Out… eh easy. easy, just an old saying.

Freedom is responsibility and it ain’t free. Bone up and defend each other your life might depend on it….

Nous defions

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TheBear April 8, 2014 at 03:11 pm

Damn – epic reply.

This shitfest could singlehandedly double Endo Mike’s view count. Ain’t no drama like military drama.

::grabs popcorn::

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Another Soldier April 8, 2014 at 05:22 pm

“Served 8 years in US Army as 71Q, 11B, 18D; 1982-1990; Exited SFC 1st SFG Special Mission Unit”

? It sounds possible, but I have to ask, how did you do two MOS’s and the entire Q course for 18D and then go to that “other selection” and that “other course” to make it into the SMU you are implying there. Never assume anything, but that is a pretty crazy run you are talking about for only 8 years in the Army. Maybe you are legit, but the SMU and “wounds to show for it” sounds very poser. If your legit, consider your wording next time.

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 05:46 pm

+1

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PJ April 8, 2014 at 03:54 pm

While the comment seemed to have a “if you weren’t a trigger puller then screw you vibe,” I think Grant made some fair points. People tend to way over estimate how much firearms training the vast majority of military personnel receive and that all combat related training is relevant to personal protection. Like law enforcement there are a ton of job relevant skills that need to be taught and practiced that don’t directly relate to firearms manipulation. Most don’t even receive any handgun training. The idea that military service automatically equals firearm competence is a fallacy.

That said in the video Col. Jacobs is in full up politician mode in that clip. He addresses arming ALL base personnel and doesn’t want to be interrupted because he doesn’t want to address Lott’s actual argument that some personnel other than just MPs might should be armed. Dispute over manners aside, Jacobs is being dishonest and misleading, and which is none too honorable.

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d0zer April 8, 2014 at 03:59 pm

Agreed…

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david mortimer April 8, 2014 at 05:46 pm

+1

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Scott s April 8, 2014 at 05:33 pm

Clarification/Check:

The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States and The Bill of Rights, together, protect our natural/God given right “to keep and bear arms.” In turn they are our “contract” with those who volunteer to serve in our government and our military to keep us free. The military and whom volunteer to serve within the military work for us to protect and defend us and our interest within a foreign nations context. I repeat the military works for us(should say that’s the way it is designed to be) and the government works us.

I served, voluntarily, for eight years, 1982-1990, as a 71Q, 11B, 18D, exiting from the Army as a SFC from 1st SFG Special missions Unit. Constant training and dark and dirty action. Wounded and lucky to be alive.

the world is beautiful and dark. humans are beautiful and dark. You have the right to meet this head on or run and hide. And, with that right comes the responsibility for the action(s) you take. Good and Bad. Own it.

Fact is DOD and each service branch have the authority to dictate how their service members will serve in the context of individual defensive arms, privately own and service designated. To change this the people will have to do as directed by our Constitution, amendments and law. Service members are not afforded the same right as citizens.

All that said my “opinion” is that that Col. Jacobs is in service to the “DOD” and the “Government” and NOT the people of free United States of America. His sacrifices and the honors he has received are commendable, but, as he says, they were for the “common good” not for individual freedom and responsibility. And, my opinion is that his statements are A disgrace, in the context of this nation of states and liberty. And, my opinion is protect and defend each other, always

“de oppresso liber” and “nous defions”

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Highball April 8, 2014 at 07:12 pm

The bottom line is Jacobs was a jerk during the interview. To deny this is dumb. To defend it is dumberer. Past actions don’t excuse that or make what he says right.

As a CCW holder who works on a military installation as a DoD civilian, not being able to legally have a firearm, even in my vehicle, sucks. Waiting for the next Ft. Hood incident.

Grant is an ignorant, condescending, elitist prick. Sounds like he got all butthurt b/c other people had life a little easier than him. Glad he is not serving anymore, sounds toxic. If you see someone mishandling weapons and you’re an NCO, do your job and CORRECT THEM.

Yes, I’m a vet of 8 years, enlisted and officer. No, not a trigger puller but intel. Supported SOF in an S2 capacity in the sandbox as a civilian, and did not have issues with those professionals. Went to the “range” with them, and they encouraged it.

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Scott April 8, 2014 at 07:36 pm

Well that escalated quickly.

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68wsoldier April 8, 2014 at 08:24 pm

God forbid you get pumped full of holes or blown to high hell and my useless “POG” ass has to come and square you away. Having been deployed with two different infantry companies and a RSTA squadron i have become intimate with my weapon, and can say whille combat arms units are more focused in certain areas they sure as hell aren’t the most squared away by default. It boils down to chain of command, ive been with some shitty scouts and infanty, it happens across the MOS spectrum. Im proud to be a “POG”, and ppl who are in the know and have time down range know its not only super high speed hooah, hooah joes out on mission, Il be damned if your Platoon sergeant leaves my POG ass behind.

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d0zer April 8, 2014 at 09:17 pm

Why get so bent out of shape at a label?

Now I will take your words at face value and believe you are as “squared away” as you say you are. Great. Good for you. Seriously.

I will only speak as a Marine, but as I said earlier, the non-infantry MOS’s fuck with the infantry regarding their perceived lack of intelligence all the time. So they give as good as they get, thus the “in-house” rivalry I spoke of in an earlier post. I would not think it presumptuous to believe that this rivalry, in the Army, is that far off in this respect–but I could be wrong.

It’s the old adage, “I can fuck with my brothers, but as an outsider, if you do, I will beat your ass….” Marine, Soldier, Sailor, POG, infantrymen, SOF, w/e, we are all brothers.

The debate should be about how to better ensure the safety of our brothers and sisters on base.

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1039211434572384 April 8, 2014 at 09:04 pm

Cannon Fodder who couldn’t get a good score on his ASVAB bitches about fat bitch who outscored him…. film at eleven.

Seriously kids, when you start your rants with “As a {insert rank that means nothing to anyone but you} in {conflict that my taxes paid for but sadly I had no interest in seeing you go there} I have seen {insert some acronym that makes your sorry ass feel better about yourself} do {stupid shit that your wife does on a daily basis and pisses you off} and then they do {the shit your wife does with the local soccer team while your on tour} with the {guys you wish you were} and that’s really {insert knuckle dragging spelling of a word you didn’t understand before Google} so ….” you end up pretty much voiding all other statements beyond that.

Should everyone be allowed to carry on base? Hmm can they carry off base? if yes then .. yes

So relax and can you non-POGs please stop going crazy and shooting up shit?

Thanks,

The guy who pays your bills

P.S. don’t worry I’m not talking about you specifically.

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PJ April 8, 2014 at 09:33 pm
d0zer April 8, 2014 at 09:44 pm

Just for clarification for those not familiar with Marine Corps bases, the 2 Marines referred to in that little blurb, would be PMO–the military police of the Corps.

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Cargosquid April 9, 2014 at 08:48 am

We had a Marine Guard shoot another in the leg while playing “cowboy” with his new M9 pistol.

Officer comes into the secure entry room, “What the hell is going on?”
Marine explained that the noise was a “backfire” from a truck outside. They had vented the smoke out the door.
Officer still smells the cordite and examines the room and then notices blood on the floor next to one Marine….”Marine, why are you bleeding?”
Marine 2 turns to Marine 1, “YOU MOTHERFUCKER! YOU SHOT ME!”

Heck….. One Marine shot a car’s tail light out by playing “cowboy” with the new pistols.

The old .45 holsters apparently took the safety off….or at least that was the “official” explanation.

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dgdimick April 10, 2014 at 09:43 am

Having carried both holsters, the old 45 holsters did not take the saftey off. Having been a Marine, I can testify that the first thing you do is play cowboy, then promptly drop it.

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JoshuaS April 9, 2014 at 05:05 pm

John McCain served admirably and with great fortitude in Vietnam, enduing horrid conditions as a POW.

He has my greatest respect for that. That doesn’t mean I agree with his politics at all. Nor does that mean I won’t point out how utterly principled he is as a politician, going wherever the wind blows on most issues.

Inn my experience there can be a certain elitism among those with training and experience. There is no denying that an infantryman or a Green Beret is far more expert on weapons than I. But that very expertise can lead very easily to an exaggerated standard and unfounded deprecation of those less skilled. You see that in every field. If you are an expert in a subject, you can easily regard average people as utterly ignorant and stupid, even when in fact they have a good general understanding in the way an educated person should on a breadth of subjects . But not being an expert, they don’t meet your standard in your field and you hold them in lower esteem than is warranted.

It isn’t always a conscious arrogance , but it is certainly there. So with due respect to those who have served and shown bravery, that doesn’t mean their opinions here should be accepted with any more weight than the rationale they can give to back them up calls for.

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Mark April 10, 2014 at 08:42 pm

I served but not going to get into it. The suggestion the the military puts together it’s own Concealed carry or carry permit/license system that is good at ANY base/station/installation, is what I think is the best. Make it a requirement that they also have a State permit BEFORE they can obtain a .MIL permit and they MUST maintain competency and understand the shoot/no shoot and legal ramifications that go along with it.

That I feel is the only way we can assure that knowledgeable and responsible persons are the ones who carry. Not the irresponsible cowboys/girls who would possibly endanger others if a situation DOES develop.

Just my .02 cents

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Mike S April 11, 2014 at 09:02 pm

I just want to apologize on behalf of Grant as he made infantry mos in both army and Marines look like a crazy bag of ass.
However a lot of what he had mentioned is true, but it is not simply limited to the military. There are idiots packing carry licenses all over the country. I work in a high end gun club in the Houston area and I cannot even begin to mention the quantity of idiots I encounter on a daily basis who own their own firearms yet do not understand the dangers of crossing thumbs behind a handgun. You look at these targets they shoot at and its as if someone took a shotgun to them, no understanding of fundamentals, trigger discipline or even proper handling and safety and worse yet, no intention to better themselves about it because, pride and root toot gun rights.
Working as a firearm instructor has brought my opinions of our current state of affairs with gun rights in this country to an all time low. I am a realist, not a party platform loving gun toting 2nd amendment right shouting castle doctrine practicing NRA card carrying member moron that has now saturated the numbers of gun owners and lovers these days. I believe in everyone being able to practice their second amendment right, but I also understand that comes with great responsibility in understanding every aspect related to that practice from when to shoot to when not to shoot, how you shoot and most importantly, how you keep yourself from ever having to shoot a threat.
I think its wrong of Grant to call out any American civilian for practicing his god given rights, especially on this forum, for all of you demonstrate the interest in not simply practice but responsibility as well which is more than can be said of most military. Unfortunately, his opinion is a reflection that we do need stricter carrying requirements instituted by the state, especially in Texas that keep CHL holders on top of their game not just physically trigger wise, but mentally trigger wise as well.
The over abundance of emotion and pride in the gun world fuels the over abundance of emotion and pride in the liberal side as well…idiots feeding other idiots
You guys keep up the good shit though, this site is entertaining as fuck.

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JM Ferguson July 8, 2016 at 03:47 pm

TIL as a 12B I am a POG. Sappers lead the way? I guess not.

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